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REFINE
This is where we draw the line between Sunday knowledge and we live the word and principles of God practically, in every aspect of our life. Christ didn't save us to make us feel good, instead we are called to freedom, victory & abundance. On this podcast we are discipled, cultivated, challenged, refined and fruitful in every aspect of our lives! Goodbye passive Christianity, Hello to fruitful living! Welcome to a life REFINED
REFINE
Fathers are parents too: Redefining What It Means to Be a Dad
What does it truly mean to be a present father? Beyond showing up at occasional soccer games or providing financially, the depth of fatherhood remains murky territory for many men—especially those who grew up without strong father figures themselves.
This eye-opening conversation with Sbu Zikalala takes us on a journey across continents as he shares how moving from South Africa to Taiwan completely transformed his understanding of what engaged fatherhood looks like. The cultural differences revealed a startling truth: many fathers don't realize how much more they could be bringing to their families.
"Being with your children IS being occupied," Sbu explains, challenging the common mindset that time with children is somehow less productive than other activities. This powerful perspective shift represents just one of many practical insights shared throughout our discussion. We explore his surprising hierarchy of fatherhood priorities—with finances and security at the top, and love appearing last—not because love matters less, but because for many men, love is demonstrated through these practical expressions rather than treated as a separate emotional currency.
For fathers who don't live with their children, we offer honest guidance about making the most of a non-ideal situation. And for those struggling with spiritual leadership, Sbu provides accessible approaches that don't require biblical expertise but still position fathers as family anchors.
Whether you're a new father, a seasoned dad looking to level up your involvement, or someone trying to understand the men in your life better, this conversation offers fresh perspectives on raising the bar for what present fatherhood can and should be. Join us as we work to create a clearer template for engaged fatherhood—one that benefits children, strengthens partnerships, and fulfills men in one of their most important roles.
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What's up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Refine. I'm so excited for today's episode. I think I'm excited for all of them On today's episode.
Speaker 1:The purpose of this conversation is to bring clarity to. I think we already know the role of a woman Sometimes. It doesn't mean that we're always fulfilling it, but let's be honest, we know the role of a wife, we know the role of a woman, we know the role of a mother. We know the role of a woman. We know the role of a mother in society. We have that benchmark.
Speaker 1:It's very clear when you're neglecting your child, we know exactly what it looks like, but we don't know what that looks like when it comes to fatherhood and present dads and sometimes present fatherhood looks like just attending one soccer match and you feel like, yeah, you've made it in life and I don't think that's quite the case. So I think it's an important conversation to have because I think it will also help us navigate things, particularly if you're a family you know, and maybe the wife might feel, or the mom might feel, like she's pulling a lot of the weight. It will open us up a little bit more and bring understanding. Or if you're co-parenting and you're really trying your best to help one another find a middle ground and a common understanding as to what fatherhood looks like. Present fatherhood looks like and motherhood. This is what today's conversation is all about. So I have one of the drippiest dads out there. I was waiting for that line. One of the drippiest dads out there, mr Sbu Zigalani.
Speaker 2:Hi, Hi Buli.
Speaker 1:Sbu is a friend of ours. I'm going to have him introduce himself. But Sbu is a friend of ours. They got married three years prior to us and when we got married we had this married thing happening. We would sit and ask questions and giving's, giving iron shoppers iron at times, but it was a really, it's a really great relationship and I'm so grateful that we are still in each other's lives. Um for us, seven years down the line and we are still being sharpened. That's why you're here, because of a conversation that we had, yeah, so appreciate that introduce yourself to the people who you are.
Speaker 1:What you do, it's, it's all up to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so thank you very much, wuli, for that very gracious introduction. I'm Spusi Swazigalala. I'm a husband, I'm a father, come on and I work. I work in Taiwan in the education and management space, and I'm passionate about family. I'm passionate about marriage. I'm passionate about family. I'm passionate about marriage. I'm passionate about fatherhood. I think I'm a relatively new father. I mean, you know father for three years now. I think we're going to three years, so you've actually been a parent longer yeah than than than me, but we married longer than that's interesting, uh.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I've got three siblings. I'm the fourth one, I'm the last born. I think I'm the cheese child.
Speaker 1:The cheese child. Yeah, and also just remember, now we're into the same high school, but after I left, then you were head boy, so he's got a good. There was a. What a master's In philosophy.
Speaker 2:Yes, there's also a master's in philosophy. Yeah, there's also a master's in philosophy. Yeah, from yeah, yeah, yeah, there's also that's uh, yeah, yeah, thank you. Yeah, yeah, you must represent yourself properly so that people can know what you're really on the bus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, feel like you just want to talk about things, but people who I think that's also why I enjoy our conversation so much, because I understand the minds before you bring a conversation. He's like guys, guys, guys. I just want to it's about to go down. We love it so much so we sharpen one another, we learn so much when they're around. So, as you heard, he, he, they're currently. They've been based in well, they're currently based in taiwan. They've been out of the country for a couple of years now.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think it's eight years now, yeah, yeah, when you guys left, no seven, because when you left it was just the beginning of when we were enjoying you guys and you're like guys, we've got some news we're going to china and you're like what china?
Speaker 1:you guys moved to taiwan and you've been doing life basically outside of the country, yeah, so what sparked this conversation is that you came back and you're like, you know, you coming back to South Africa, you saw such a gap in what fatherhood looks like and and present fatherhood looks like. So I want you to unpack that for us, because I think for us sometimes we feel like fatherhood is a certain way and sometimes it's just the bare minimum, but you, as a man, have noticed that there's such a difference in in what fatherhood looks like. So, if you don't mind just unpacking that a bit and what that looks like, Sure.
Speaker 2:So I think that's a good question and I don't think that this is something that I expected, bully, to be honest with you, you know, I grew up here in South Africa, so my context and my understanding of fatherhood is based around South Africa quite a lot. But when we went to Taiwan, something quite interesting happened. I started to see the interaction of let's call them Taiwanese parents and their children, particularly fathers, and I noticed that there's a significant thing that I've never been introduced to or I wasn't quite familiar with, introduced to or I wasn't quite familiar with, which is the fact that the way that I think there's a I might be not using the right word here, but there's a closeness and there's an involvement that's good of fathers that they have with their children, that I just was not used to. So I'll give you an example. Uh, you'll see the same far I I've actually, I've actually seen a man in a certain restaurant with his daughter, beautiful, beautiful bonding.
Speaker 2:I saw him in another restaurant. I saw him go crash, and this is this, and I'm beginning to think doesn't this child, doesn't this beautiful girl, have a mother? Yeah, so so I think that's one of the things that, for me, is like, okay, this is not what I expected, this is what, this is not what I thought of. Uh, of the things that for me, is like okay, this is not what I expected, this is not what I thought of. Where the subject of fatherhood?
Speaker 1:is concerned, but.
Speaker 2:I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing because I don't like to use the word forces, so I'll think of a substitute, or you can think of another word there, but it does something to us to let us know that there's a bar and there's a higher bar, and that there's a higher bar, and, and, and you know, we, we love our South African fathers, but sometimes there's a tendency to kind of say, okay, I'm doing better than the not so great performing father and I think we've got to work at it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we've got to work at it.
Speaker 1:So if you can unpack now, having that understanding because you've seen it differently in one country, you've seen it one way in yours what does maybe present fatherhood look like? Let's begin to unpack and have this conversation. I think, like I said, society has always shown us we might not talk about it, but everybody knows what is expected. So maybe if we can begin to paint the picture of what we think you know it should be expected, of what a present father looks like. So when you have your child, what role? Especially because you have from from small to big, you know, because I also feel like some fathers are like handle the baby, I'll come. You know, I'll come back when they're like six or seven, when they know how to utter words. But I don't think it really looks like that.
Speaker 1:I think it's from the get go and, to be quite honest, this is where Kevin and I struggled, especially with Essie in the beginning, because unfortunately, he came from a background where his dad came in late. You know he's raised by his mom and my expectations of him were different because I was raised, you know, in in with both parents and I saw how present my father was in my life as a girl. You know he knew how to braid my hair, he knew how to and all that stuff. So I'm expecting him to kind of know what to do, but he didn't, you know. So then the frustration came because I thought you should know better and he didn't. He didn't. So maybe let's begin to paint that picture of what present fatherhood could look like. What does it look like?
Speaker 2:the notes brought, but we're gonna narrow it down yeah, yeah, look um, maybe let me start action, not in action not theory, not talk.
Speaker 1:It's like what does it actually look like? We're trying to, you know. Does it look like taking the kids to school? Does it look like feeding them, changing them, you know, like you said, spending time with them. What does it look like?
Speaker 2:in action. In action, I hope. Look, I'll begin by starting to say what I think it's not Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's good. It's just not that it's a bad thing, but it's probably a conversation for another time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that present fatherhood, in my opinion, is not co-parenting. I think, as a father, you must live in the house of your son or daughter yeah, okay. House of the of your son or daughter yeah, okay, um, and presumably, again I will assume that you should be married to the person that you're with, but not necessarily, but for sure you must be in the house.
Speaker 2:Yeah and um, I think let me answer your question by letting you know what I got up to as a new father okay so when unomta gave birth with our son, she had to be away for like six to seven days because she was just recovering and we were in a new country. So basically I had to sort of look after the baby, yeah. So I had to change the baby, had to kind of, when the baby needed to be fed, take the baby to the mom and clean up and make sure that there's food and make sure that, like, anything that Nomta needs is there, you know. So I think what we really desire as men and as women, is that constant state of fatherhood. So, in my opinion, where you are needed and where there's a gap to fill and you feel that gap, I would say that that's the highest degree of fatherhood.
Speaker 2:But life is not like that. We have work to do, we've got bills to pay and we've got things to do, and so I think that, as the gauge that I measure myself up against as a present father is, first of all, am I at home, am I involved in the home, do I provide and do I protect? This is my own standard and this is a standard that I tend to sort of judge other fathers by, particularly the the whole thing of do you provide and you protect. I think I think it's conservative. I think there's sometimes it can be controversial. I think it's a conservative position but I conservatively hold that position. I think. I think, being a being a present father. I would like to compare it to some somewhat being like a bouncer in a club. You know when you go to a club and not that we club guys we don't.
Speaker 2:No, but we understand we understand good In another life, yeah, but when you go to a club and there's a bouncer, there's a sense of protection that you feel. I think that a father is that in the context of his home I think the children must is that in his, in the context of his home. I think the children must feel safe. I think the children must feel that we're protected. I think the, the mom or the wife and the people in the house should also feel the same and that's why, for me, there's an intricate, weird link between fatherhood being able to protect and gym physical fitness being able to to, to be able to run, to be able to do squats, burpees and all of those things, because those things are practical measures.
Speaker 1:We're talking about practical practicality, right yeah those are things that I think uh will will beef you up as a father you spoke about how your wife had to be in confinement, because that's how they do it.
Speaker 1:That's yeah yeah, so I just, like you, have a kid go home, depending on on what it looks like. But I also want to I'm quite I don't want to say nervous, but apprehensive to say that fatherhood should be a filling of a gap. Okay, you know, I would like for us to talk about how to or maybe how because remember, we're different families how we can approach the conversation of what your role as a father looks like, because at least you were told that she is not going to be around, she needs to recover. You must just bring the baby and then after that, the baby's all yours and you handle it. Right, and that is what it looks like in Taiwan. But in South Africa what often happens is the mom has the child, the mom nurses the child.
Speaker 1:Dad's life goes back. You know to what it is after a week can go to work, he can go to gym, he can come and spend time with the baby for two seconds as the mom goes to bath. Then she comes back. He's like he has her kid. Those are the things that I'm.
Speaker 1:I'm, instead of filling the gap, how can dads from a very young stage be present and then, how can they have a healthy conversation to build what fatherhood should look like in their household.
Speaker 1:So, for example, what I'm seeing, what I'm seeing, this is what we stumbled into I guess we spoke about it, but what I'm seeing is my husband takes care of Essie I would say primarily or handles the stuff that's got to do with Essie.
Speaker 1:I do all the admin, I've got the reports and everything like that, the emotional well-being and stuff. But he's present, making sure that she's at school, takes her to school, he takes her to the hair salon. He will spend time with her when I've got to do, especially because my job is to sometimes be on the streets and to go to events. He's not babysitting, he's a dad at home with his kids. You know, and I think I would like for us to blur that line between not filling in gaps but dads just being as present and how they can paint that or how we can paint that role, because I think sometimes we have to and I have had conversations with kids like this before where it's kind of like I have to revolve our lives or we revolve our lives around his schedule instead of him finding a way to fit us in his life, you know, so that we are this beautiful working organization. Family where it feels right, not fair where it's done right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hear you, I hear you and I agree. You know, ideally I don't think we want it to be about filling in a gap, but I, yeah. So this is sort of what I think can be, can help us as gents Be present, okay, be present, okay. And I think there's a struggle that we have as guys that we tend to sort of tug with, and it's this thing of being occupied or oomba busy. I'm not too sure how to explain it.
Speaker 2:I think guys, or generally as men, there's a tendency to kind of want to constantly be occupied with something, and I think it gets weird when you have to conceptualize the fact that being around your children, sometimes in silence, sometimes in conversation, sometimes in chaos, sometimes in tears, that is an occupation. I think that's something that I had to kind of come to terms with. That's good, that when you're chilling with your children and let's say, you are on I prefer not to be on my phone, but let's suppose, for argument's sake and for generality's sake, you're on your phone and you're occupied. Yeah, you know when the children are crying, you're occupied, yeah, occupied. Yeah, you know when, when the children are crying, you're occupied. So I, I think we haven't come to. We haven't yet reckoned with the fact that being occupied and being with your kids is actually indistinguishable.
Speaker 2:That's one thing. When you are, when you are at home and the guys are out and the guys are playing soccer and you have to look after your son or your daughter, you're occupied, you're busy. I don't know why it is, but we don't tend to think of it in those terms. We tend to think that, okay, I'm with my son or my daughter now. Okay, so when am I going to get the next call to kind of come and chill? And I think we need to change our mindsets on that. That's good. I think that doesn't show how much you prioritize your family, and I think that you can change it. You know, the nice thing about this this is what I've always loved about kind of getting married young Sorry to be going off the tangent Is that there's room, bully. There's room to make adjustments, there's room to change, there's room to do things differently. So so I think my biggest word on that would be would be that when you are with your children, bro, you're occupied. Yeah, your time is not being filled. You're occupied, you're doing something.
Speaker 1:Sure, you're doing something important and I think that's good, because men often say I'm going out in order to be productive. No, you're productive. Your productivity is also when you're there with your kids. I think that's. That's something that I've learned. I've I've got the recording you must take kids.
Speaker 2:I think that's something that I've learned, I've got the recording, you must take out your notebooks.
Speaker 1:So there's something that I thought it would be interesting. Sure, right, and I have to read it off here. Okay, in your opinion, right, and the beauty about this discussion, again, it's just creating awareness. In your opinion, what's the most important to the least important? Not to say it's insignificant, but yeah, let's, let's see which one weighs a little bit heavier on the scale. Again, what we're trying to do is build almost like the, a rubric a little bit, or the foundation, or a picture of, or the stencil yes of what fatherhood looks like, and then other things can change, but this is the core core.
Speaker 1:So we have I think we have seven, okay, from the most important to the least. Okay, I'll read them all, then we can go through them slowly. The most important to the least is when it comes to what fathers should provide the most Finances, slash resources, spiritual growth, mentorship and covering. Number three quality time. Number four emotional support.
Speaker 2:Number five love.
Speaker 1:Number six security, even physically.
Speaker 2:And number seven, discipline. Sure, yeah, that is a moment for me to think. Should I give you my top two from that list? Yes, please, I think finances.
Speaker 1:Okay, finances and resources Okay, and.
Speaker 2:Security.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, let's quickly just unpack those. So finances okay, I'm not going to lie, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, finances, and okay, I'm not going to lie. Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Finances and resources. I 100% understand. Maybe you can explain why it matters to you.
Speaker 2:I think it's kind of like an arrow that has two sides.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So the one side is towards you, your wife and your family, but I think the other side is towards yourself as a guy. I think being able to provide financially bully for your family is almost like a charger for a guy. I think it gives him the chutzpah, I think it gives him the energy and I think it gives him that wanting to provide more for his family. So that's what I've kind of noticed with myself. The financial provision of things is actually really the charger. It keeps the phone going but it energizes me to want to kind of do more for the family. So I see it as like a double-edged thing in a positive way.
Speaker 1:And then you said then security, what does that look like? Are like, are your kids.
Speaker 2:Bouncer. You know, you know. You know what I was thinking about actually when I was answering that I was actually thinking about my wife okay yeah, I think fatherhood is weird to say, but I think fatherhood is incomplete without a secure mom and therefore that will translate into secure children. Yeah, I, I, I think it's a big deal bully, uh that is something all by itself, I think I.
Speaker 1:I I wonder if the I yeah I think it's a big deal.
Speaker 2:I think it's a big deal and again, it's one of those things where it kind of looks like they're not connected, but if you begin to think about it, uh you you'll see a relationship, a positive or negative relationship, between the security of the mom and the security of the children. So I would rather say, do you know what? I will fight the battle of making sure that my wife is secure because that, because that will ensure that the kids are secure.
Speaker 1:When you say secure, what do you mean? Is it like secure again financially? Is it an emotion? Is it an emotional security? What does that look like? Like a mental sick I.
Speaker 2:I. I would like to put it in the terms of being secure and and being at peace. I think that's how I would describe it. That's how it sounds to me when I want it to sound right being at peace and being at rest, knowing that this man is doing all that he can for us.
Speaker 1:Offering baskets. Please, Anybody have a cap or something?
Speaker 2:Honestly, because you know, and again to maybe veer off a little bit to going to marriage, I found that for a long time, manomta and I were kind of having our struggles and our issues. The issue wasn't the issue, the struggle wasn't the struggle, the struggle was dude. I'm not so secure and I'm not able to articulate that properly to you, but once she was able to gather the vocabulary, I think it became really easy, because something weird happened. She was like I actually think I'm not secure and at that moment it was almost like okay, you don't need to explain it any further. I know exactly what you mean and I think I know exactly what I need to patch up to ensure that you're more secure. And that's helped us. Sure, it really, really, really, really has helped us.
Speaker 1:My goodness.
Speaker 2:So finances and security so finances and security.
Speaker 1:So we've cut those. Now we are left with five. What do you think comes next? Spiritual growth, mentorship and covering quality time, emotional support, love and all discipline. Okay, Spirituality for sure and just all discipline, okay, spirituality for sure absolutely what does that look like?
Speaker 1:because we've been having some chats that you know. Sometimes you'll find that it's the woman leading the things. I'm, you wake, we wake up at night or whatever they care, I don't know how people's schedules look like and we're praying and whatever, and it just seems like there's this, just this content constant leadership of women leading spiritually or maybe even fulfilling their role as watchmen, but the men are like yeah, it's, it's true, it's true, and partly because I think that's just a representative of what's happening just nationally, like around the church.
Speaker 2:The church predominantly is not our church, but generally the church is full of women, uh, and so that kind of reflects and falls back into homes. Um, but as a, as a guy, this is what I could say you could do to help lead your family spiritually, make sure that it happens so so, so, even if you feel not so confident in addressing issues in the Bible and kind of doing some, you know, spirit biblical.
Speaker 1:Bible study or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, make sure that it happens. Okay, so you talk to your wife and say, hey, once or twice a week I want us to get together as a family. You can share for 10 minutes. The children will talk for two, three minutes how they feel, and then we'll all close. And then, as the father, I'll close, I'll do a general prayer to close. I think this is if you're feeling a little bit you know weird about entering into that space but if God has led you to lead your family in a certain way, then go ahead and do it. But, gents, let's not think that just because you don't have the spiritual acumen to lead your family, that you don't have to Organize the time. Organize the time, make sure that it happens, and then, when the wife is done, sharing the Bible and everything with everyone, she will and I think she'll play along.
Speaker 2:So I think one of the things that women are really good at that is that you really really play along with them very well, right? So? So so, even when they reference you, and even if they want to hear a view from you, it will be so reverent, it will be so good and it will be so inviting, such that you will also want to lay out your opinion, uh, regarding those, those biblical matters, and at the end, you ask mama to close and you can just Father, we also thank you for everything and we thank you with this family Amen. It's not a complicated thing. Make sure it happens, make sure your wife you facilitate it and you close it. Your children will love you, your children will respect you and your wife will have the highest regard for you. So spiritual leadership is not you leading the Bible study, it's ensuring that it happens, ensuring that it's facilitated and that you wrap it up. And I think and you can give me a different view here that women and wives will be very happy to be involved with that.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, like we're already waiting. Just say the that Absolutely, like we're already waiting. Just say the words Absolutely, so okay, so that's top three. It's amazing we're getting there Last fork. So quality time, emotional support, love, discipline what's next?
Speaker 2:Discipline Okay.
Speaker 1:All right, let's see.
Speaker 2:Discipline and I'm struggling with this. We have a son. Uh, in fact, we we were also, but we are well. We were supposed to meet and have our own thing last week, but we couldn't come because my son was giving us a little bit of a tough time and I noticed how that, okay, it's not a lack of discipline, okay. Okay, he's two years old, turning three, part of the process.
Speaker 2:Part of the process of doing the most. Yeah, sure, but I do think that it gives a good indication of what can happen if the child grows up and there isn't a level of discipline in his or her life. And it's disturbing. Okay, I think, even with the understanding that he's he's young, he's still going to grow up. It's all part of the psychological, physiological stuff. I mean, it's disturbing then how much more when they grow up and now they're not disciplined. So, and I think that that's also one of the things that can tend to destabilize a family, not children, children, children generally, but I think children that are in ill discipline specifically can tend to put a strain between the relationship between the man and the wife. So I would say that for those reasons, for the sake of the stability of the fellowship and the love and the intimacy between husband and wife, I definitely want to put the discipline of the children up there.
Speaker 1:So disciplines fourth on the list, last, we have quality time. Well, not last. Well, we have quality time, emotional support and love.
Speaker 2:Sure, I haven't mentioned love already.
Speaker 1:As you're talking, I'm like I know this man is going to put love at the bottom. I don't know why I meant to do that, but okay, let's hear it. Let's see Quality at the bottom. I don't know why I meant to do that, but okay, let's hear it. Let's see Quality time, emotional support, love.
Speaker 2:I think emotional support Okay, yeah, okay, I think I put emotional support next. Yes, I would want to put emotional support next because I just you know the family that I come from and you mentioned things about being head boy and whatnot at school. I don't think I would be the person that I am had it not been for my mom's, my brother's and my two sisters' and my dad's emotional support that I received. I think that really carved the man that I am today and I'm actually beginning to regret why didn't I put it higher on the list? Because in my forming and in my molding as a young man to who I am today, it's formed such a critical part, like I just remember days where my brother would say to me just randomly hey, dude, you're doing good, and this is like I'm in school. You know I'm in matric, um, and you just hear those words are you doing well, bro? You know you're trying your best, we see it, we appreciate it, you know, and and oh that's another charger.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's another another charger. Yeah, especially men.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a charger for sure, you know, and maybe mum doesn't do it quite the same.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it will never match. It will never match, yeah.
Speaker 2:But there will be those days where mum shamboludas herself and says just that, yeah, you know, you still visit us, you still see us, you still honor us in in our lives and um, yeah, I think, I think, I think there's something to really to be said about that and the formation of us and um, I don't think we have a lot of that as so let's go back.
Speaker 1:So, after spirituality, emotional support, yeah, then discipline yeah, I think I'd want to.
Speaker 2:I'd want to switch those yeah, okay, yeah, uh, quality time I knew it quality time I knew it, I knew it, yes, I knew it.
Speaker 1:Like love, love for men is just like, it's just like this thing that you guys know exists. But I don't know if love is currency for you guys, if it means as much. But I understand, yeah, I understand, um, so it's quality time yeah like you said, it's still that presence. Right when you're with your kids, you switch off the phone and you pay attention to them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I think this is actually when we moved abroad. We were here for a year. Yes, we were here for a year and we could kind of gauge the sense and quality and the texture of our marriage Bully when we moved abroad and we stayed there for like two, three years. You must understand, it's just me and Nomta, nobody else, nothing else.
Speaker 1:You were looking at each other like this Sure the quality time.
Speaker 2:The quality time and I think you, you know, and look, I say this with humility, but marriage for us is not one of those sore points sure yeah, it's not a thing where you know sometimes you get together with the gents and it just really needs to say it's like a vintage session. Yeah, yeah, you know and and and you just share your heart. Yeah, and it might be marriage for one guy, it might be finance for another when I'm in that space.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's never marriage no.
Speaker 2:And I think it's not marriage, and I think that those years abroad, sure, when it was just me and her, god was just doing something, a bond was being formed. And not to say that people that haven't been abroad and by themselves don't have that, but goodness me, I can testify to the fact that there was just such a strong bond that had happened. Uh, and sure it's, it's good, you know, it's good, you know that this is my woman and hopefully the woman says this is my man, um, and, and they're not going anywhere and there's a, there's a bond that's formed. I think for us, being abroad has been that, and that's also made me realize the importance of quality time. Yeah, so I can't not have that with my wife and not give it to my children I think that would be unfair.
Speaker 2:Sure, quality time was one of the things that helped us to be where we are as a married couple. How can I not pour out into my kids and see the potential of what they could be if I was a father to give them quality time? So it's bottom on the list, not bottom. Love is low on the list, but high actually. Yeah, high quality time.
Speaker 1:I think that's where you see how practical men are, that all these things can build to show that I love you. It's just, you know, for us it's. We are usually governed by the feeling, but you guys are more practical to say let's plug in all these things, it will equal love. I think that's what I'm understanding, not to say that it's insignificant, but this is how we practically get there, while we base it first on feelings and emotions and that's what drives us. And not to say it's wrong, it's our feel, right for some women, but I'm starting to see the differences and how this very interesting list you can take it, love the list.
Speaker 1:Thanks. You can take it to your families and begin to say let's use the stencil, tweak it here and there to create this thing for our home. But I do want to ask that there are fathers that unfortunately, due to circumstance, don't live with the mom of the kids. How can they be as present as we rep and a child still feel like you know what? I didn't live with my dad full time, but he was extremely present in my life. I didn't even see that gap, because I know it's possible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, tough. I think that's tough. Uh, father bro, if if you are in that situation, I think you're in a situation where you have to make a lot of effort because that is not the ideal. So we're moving from a situation where we're moving from what is non-ideal to what is close as possible to ideal. So I think the first thing is to actually recognize that as possible to ideal. So I think the first thing is to actually recognize that sometimes we, we glorify these types of things, like we co-parent. Well, we, we, we know we're not together, but the kids are thriving and all of that stuff and we don't know if they are.
Speaker 2:Yeah and again, not to say that there's not a case to be made about that. But in a situation where you're not living in the house with your children, it's not ideal, and I think the best that you can do is is just put your best foot forward. If that means being there, when you say you're going to be there, then do that. You know, have integrity. But it also means when you can't be there, also say it.
Speaker 2:You know, and and this is also one thing that is quite hard for me it's weird. It's so easy to say I'll be there for sure, you know, don't even think twice about it. But uh, but if you have plans and you know you, you know that you've committed to those plans just say I look, I can't do it. Uh, and that's actually part of that non-idealness or un-idealness of the situation that you're in. But yeah, that's what I would say Put your best foot forward. If you want me to be more specific, I'd say be a man of your word. If you want me to be more specific, just have integrity. Like, mean what you say and say what you mean.
Speaker 1:And do what you say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and do what you mean, and do what you say. Yeah, and do what you say yeah, do what you say yeah, but recognize, bro, that you're not in an ideal situation and, yeah, take it from there. Sure, it's not ideal.
Speaker 1:There's so many things that I could say. I really wish that hopefully, before you leave, we can sit and talk about marriage. This man has plans.
Speaker 1:We've got a whole library when it comes to marriage, we sit and we, like I said, it's iron sharpens iron. When we get there, um, and even some of the things you've mentioned now, like the quality time, my husband and I sat and we're like I think our friends might be offended, but we are no longer going to be honoring as many invites because we really just want to spend time.
Speaker 1:It's a good decision yeah, we, we just we've just got things to do now and we've, we've. We see the season that our life is in and we're like, okay, this is what we're going to need in order to go forward. This has gone as far as new years, sure that it's. It's just us two, our kids, if anything, but it's just us two, and there's a way in which we want to enter this new it. It's just different. So we're learning.
Speaker 1:We see the quality time when we sit down with people. We love being sharp and we want to be challenged, corrected, because there's a beauty that comes out of that. So, yeah, hopefully, before you leave, we can sit again, should the Lord lead us to do so, and we'll speak about marriage. But if not, I think this is just waiting all on its own. I hope that you send this to men, not out of spite, but just say, hey, give this a listen. I think this could be a great benefit for us and I know the minute some of the gents see your face, they will listen. Finally, but yeah, you'll be the me WhatsApp guy on the day.
Speaker 1:I know on WhatsApp our people, our people love us. But anyway, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Today's. I'm so grateful. My heart is beaming, it's great I enjoyed.
Speaker 2:So grateful. My heart is beaming inside. It's great I enjoyed the conversation.
Speaker 1:I've learned a lot and I believe that you will too. Like I said, if you have any questions, pop them in the comment section below Comments as well. Keep it kind, keep it cute and I'll see you guys in the next episode. Bye, thank you.
Speaker 2:That was really really nice. Yo, that was really really nice, Thank you.